Exclusive Interview | Dr. Bao, the digital alchemist, what treasures are in his NFT treasure chest?

Known as "Dr. Bao," Ru-Jun Ke is an assistant professor in the Department of Interactive Design at Taipei Tech. You may be more familiar with his presence in the cryptocurrency circle than his academic work. From the earliest blockchain collectibles CryptoKitties, to the recent multimillion-dollar auction of CryptoPunks at Christie's, digital player cards NBA Top Shot, works by digital artists Beeple and Pak, and many other familiar and unfamiliar blockchain applications, Dr. Bao has delved into them all. He has also continued to record nearly a hundred episodes of the podcast "Dr. Bao's Friends Say", which has consistently ranked high on Taiwan's technology program charts. Recently, he launched the first Podcast Cover Art NFT on the OURSONG App under KKBOX.

In an exclusive interview with this teacher who is always on top of the latest in the cryptocurrency world, what treasures are stored in his NFT treasure trove? What are his views on NFTs?

What NFTs has Dr. Bao recently collected?

Due to the diverse range of NFT collections by Dr. Bao, he has over 50 classic Meow Love cats, and more than 100 NBA Top Shot player cards. He emphasizes that he is only in the median range in Taiwan, so he wants to share the collections he has recently paid more attention to: BOSSLOGIC, ETH-MEN, Art Blocks, Kevin Abosch are too expensive to continue buying.

Currently, he finds the most timeless NFT collection to be Hashmasks because it attempts to blend artworks, sales behavior, and user participation together to explore new possibilities. Additionally, his favorite NFT artists are Beeple and Kevin Abosch.

As for owning so many NFTs, does Dr. Bao genuinely want to collect them or is it for investment purposes? He mentioned that the primary motivation for purchasing and collecting NFTs is to learn and understand this new digital media field and pass on the knowledge gained to students for academic research. However, in the medium to long term, he plans to sell around 30-50% of his collection, but in the longer term (10-20 years), he expects to keep only 1% to 10% of the best pieces for true collecting.

You can view some of Dr. Bao's collections on OpenSea: dAb. Besides, Dr. Bao also has his own NFT artworks: dAAAb.eth, dAAAb x Makersplace.

Where does Dr. Bao frequent for auctions?

He uses 70% OpenSea, 20% Nifty Gateway, and sometimes platforms like Rarible. While OpenSea's interface may not be the most visually appealing, he finds it to have the most complete functionality for checking base prices, transaction frequency, and more. Regarding the well-known designer auction platform Foundation, due to higher unit prices and less active secondary market trading, his interest in it is lower.

With many platforms for trading NFTs, one can imagine them as different record labels or record stores, each releasing different records or even exclusive items. For collectors with trading needs, Dr. Bao has some essential insights to share.

Dr. Bao mentioned that when he goes to a platform, he first tries to buy or sell NFTs with lower market value to test the overall reliability and smoothness of the process, observing factors like crowd flow, liquidity, and ease of cashing out. Additionally, platforms like NBA Top Shot, which have copyright and regional restrictions, require KYC identity verification when cashing out, and it is necessary to confirm if there are nationality restrictions to avoid situations where one cannot withdraw or liquidate their earnings despite making profits.

Is decentralization important for NFTs?

He believes this issue has two aspects:

The first point is that complete on-chain ownership and independent sustainability are the best, including images, token data that can be drawn out graphically. While not everyone may care, few projects have such characteristics. The most well-known is Autoglyphs produced by the same team as CryptoPunks, where complete data is on-chain, and the cheapest one has a current bid of 80 ETH (approximately 7 million TWD); another newer project like 0xmon is an AI-generated blockchain monster project by young creators with all data on-chain, with a total transaction amount reaching 400 ETH (approximately 35 million TWD) before the deadline.

The second point is that buying in-game items in online games may disappear, and e-books purchased on Amazon Kindle can be remotely deleted by the manufacturer. When you buy Jack Dorsey's tweet, it's not just about whether it's on-chain; what you buy is not only that your wallet address cannot be deleted, indicating that you are the authenticated buyer of that NFT, but also that you have purchased "buying that piece of history in full view of the public," which is a symbol of consensus. Therefore, whether the words are inscribed on a stone tablet or stored in data in the IPFS network, these are not essential.

What matters is: "Everyone believes you bought it."

He thinks that while it would be great if all data of NFTs were fully on-chain, such cases are rare. Although in most cases only wallet transactions are on-chain, the act of purchase being recorded gives it a certain value. The most crucial point is that everyone should think carefully: "What does it mean to own something?"

Dr. Bao said, "In reality, we don't own anything, whether it's money in the bank, purchasing power in credit cards, or stocks. So, arguing over "what exactly did you buy" and "what do you own" when buying NFTs is always a mentally draining debate that may never reach a conclusion."

Are NFTs considered art: Time will tell

The concept of "NFT digital collections" is not only criticized by the crypto community for its lack of decentralization but also faces dissent from the art community, where many people question whether NFTs can be considered art.

Dr. Bao believes: "Such comments are normal and good because if they are not considered art, then we have the opportunity to buy them."

He pointed out that looking back at Banksy's transaction records, nobody thought he was an artist. In 2003, his work was sold for $300 in a Sydney contemporary art museum store, and the most recent transaction price for that piece was $73,000. In 2013, he sold his works on the streets of New York for $60, including the piece "Love is in the Air" auctioned at Sotheby's in 2021, which sold for $12,903,000.

However, Dr. Bao acknowledges that indeed NFT digital collections may not become widely recognized as art pieces in the art trading market (but who has the authority to determine what is art and what is not?). From a market perspective, he believes that if certain NFTs lose interest over time and lack demand in the market, they will indeed lose their value. Whether they are currently considered art is not necessary to argue about because time will provide the answer.

NFT development beyond collectibles: Worship and Admiration

More and more NFT creators are breaking the boundaries between creators and viewers, where some works have a collective co-creation relationship with collectors. For instance, the content of the artwork changes with each transaction, the work itself contains puzzles that can lead to another piece, or the artwork changes based on real-world events.

With the technological foundation enabling more possibilities for NFT art, how does Dr. Bao view this phenomenon?

He mentioned that NFT anonymous creator Pak, highly praised by Sotheby's, has discovered that the world of NFTs tends toward worship or fan economy, and he is experimenting with this concept. Pak once wrote in a tweet: "It’s about the ecosystem." It's about the ecosystem.

Encouraging students to become creators: Talent can directly face the market

As an educator, Dr. Bao admits that if students plan to pursue a career centered around "NFTs," it may still be full of uncertainties because it is still too new, and future job opportunities may not be sufficient. However, a new market also brings new opportunities, and for those willing to take on the opportunity cost and risk, it's worth spending more time to understand. For students, rather than using their wages from work to become collectors or investors, he would recommend becoming creators. He said, "In the era of NFTs, anything can be valuable. Everyone can think and try how to create interesting topics and content. Using creative strategies to attract the market for purchases is something that the younger generation can excel at."

"Your talent can directly face a broad market test," Dr. Bao added.

He illustrated that in the past, if you were an illustrator, you might have joined an animation company first to draw scenes and characters for them. After several job transitions, after working at Pixar for five years, you might have had the chance to say, "I drew that little dog." But now it's different; if you have the ability to create excellent works, as long as someone is willing to buy - through the NFT market, you have the opportunity to establish your reputation and create more works without having to go through the aforementioned process.

Similarly, for programmers, they can generate art using code, such as AI artwork. In the past, demonstrating your AI programming skills required a variety of resumes to showcase your abilities. The NFT market has changed these conventions.

What does NFT bring? The iTunes and eBay of digital content

"So, what is the most significant change brought by NFTs?" we asked Dr. Bao.

Dr. Bao said the simplest way to answer is: "The NFT market will create the iTunes and eBay of digital content."

He explained that eBay turned physical goods into a secondary market, while NFTs create a secondary market for digital goods; iTunes digitized music from CDs, while NFTs tokenized digital music.

He also added that it might even expand to the e-commerce market and mobile game monetization market. Currently, e-commerce involves buying physical digital goods, but when digital works become commodities, virtual T-shirts, hats, and residences will be items that e-commerce can sell, with very fast delivery.

"Besides utility, the social value of buying a brand is essential. How much of young people's social activities take place in the virtual world?" Dr. Bao said. "The virtual world already dominates the vast majority."

He mentioned that the so-called virtual world does not necessarily mean VR virtual reality or AR augmented reality but platforms like TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram. These platforms have already introduced high-priced rare items such as account verification, fan count, and special filters, all of which hold purchasing value. Dr. Bao believes, "NFT allows these things to be traded, making it the expansion of the pure digital economic world. The social value we had in the online world can now be monetized."

Polymath? Dr. Bao: Welcome to the Digital Wild West

Observing Dr. Bao's broad interests in the cryptocurrency circle, ranging from NFTs to DeFi decentralized finance applications, along with his previous focus on various issues in the digital design field, his level of polymathy makes one curious about his primary concern. What is his most important topic?

Dr. Bao chuckled and replied, "He believes that the statement by Cathie Wood, the founder of Ark Invest, can explain this concept. She said that while the world perceives AR, VR, MR, or XR and blockchain as unrelated, to them, all these things together are called the metaverse."

He mentioned that he merely moved early to the virtual world. During the early days of western expansion in America, everyone needed to build their own houses and know how to use guns. In the past, scholars in the Central Plains had to master the Six Arts – rites, music, archery, charioteering, calligraphy, and mathematics. There was no one to blame for not being focused. For those who moved early to the primitive virtual world, it was essential to be versatile.

"So, don't misunderstand me; I am just seeking survival in the future. Welcome to the Digital Wild West!"